best box for a "Halftrac" Conversion?

i'm not convinced that torsen/helical/mechanical are the same type. torsen LSD's are impossible to confirm by just turning the wheels whilst car on a hoist. if you turn one wheel one way the other will spin in the opposite direction like an open(seen this with gt4 rear torsen and supra or soarer torsen diffs., however with the early mechanical diff in my sw20 turbo would spin them in the same direction, much like the later viscous diffs.

i'm don't know the actual workings of diff,s just their names and how i've had experiences with them. q: what catagory do the are the quaiffe ATBs or the KAAZ clutch types come under?

 

Diffs are another can of worms, different principles to do the same job
Then there's 1way, 1.5way, 2way, locked etc types to really get technical and one man's pleasure is another's hell

Apart from changing ratios, F1 teams will use different slip rates at different tracks and often a diff with too much/little slip can drastically affect lap times.
These are two of the biggest secrets when it comes to fast lap times and often the reason you sometimes see crap cars outrunning the faster, more powerfull cars.

 

had a quick read up of LSD's. wonder how the early sw20 turbo diff is setup/configured compared to the other torsen types i've seen. maybe it was just more aggressive.

going by wiki knower of all, i'd say it was a type A in the early sw20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen

 

I'm still going to add information if necessary. As for the reverse synchro, I just double checked my transaxle BGB (RM380E) and it does indeed have reverse synchromesh.

And just to clarify for those that may look for it in the future: The E56 I have didn't come out of the BEAMS ST202. It came out of a Euro SuperStrut ST202 with a 3rd Gen 3SGE. It can also be found in the JDM SS-II ST202 as well as the JDM ST206. From all the literature I've parsed through to make my ST202->ST162 swap work (which is obviously a lot) I have come to believe that the BEAMS ST202 actually came with an LSD S54. Toyodiy backs that up.

My point in all this is that there are many models out there with E Series. And among the different E series most parts are interchangable. I know this because I had to research parts availability for my box. Yes, of course these boxes are old. But what does that mean anyway? We're not going to use them? Hogwash! If anyone here is at the point where they need to rebuild or swap trannys I would fully endorse the E series despite the slight increase in weight. There are more LSD options as well as the extra synchros in 2nd, 3rd, and reverse as I explained earlier.

 

The ST202 S54 does not have a syncro fitted to the reverse gear, you will not see dual syncros on the diagram either
The reverse gear is moved by a fork, you can't fit a syncro to a fork
http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_J_1997_TOYOTA_CELICA_ST202-BLMZF_3305.html
I researched the box and there's no sign of an LSD or mention thereof
http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_J_1997_TOYOTA_CELICA_ST202-BLMZF_4301.html
The ST206 Curren also uses the exact same S54 with superstuts etc
http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_J_1998_TOYOTA_CURREN_ST206-DCMVF_3305.html
Here is the diagram for the E153 LSD - $3000 for the bare diff assy
It's not mechanical and looks like you can shim it stiffer, I hear they are weaker than Quaife etc
http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_J_1996_TOYOTA_MR2_SW20-AJMZZ_4101.html
The ST205 E154F also doesn't show any sign of dual syncros
http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_J_1994_TOYOTA_CELICA_ST205-BLMVZ_3305.html
The diff is also the same as that fitted to ST165/185

Do you have a chassis code for that box?

This is weird cuz I've also read the dual synrco claims etc but the parts diagrams don't agree.
It may be the design is slightly different and claimed to be dual syncro?

I agree on the E box, IF you are lucky/rich enough to find all the bits required, took me years of searching and anguish and now faced with rebuilding it.
For most the simplest and cheapest/easiest will be to opt for a late S54 and get it over with

Still looking for info and gear ratios etc so any info is always welcome

 

Stig, what you can't do is trust the toyodiy diagrams entirely. I have found numerous examples of the diagrams being incorrect. I use it to supplement my knowledge, but not as an omniscient all-seeing God. The information I supplied for the E154F was taken directly from Toyota literature. It is publication RM399E, the Toyota Repair Supplement for Chassis & Body, ST205, February 1994, page MX-2. It specifically states: "A triple-cone synchromesh mechanism is used in 2nd gear and a double-cone type synchromesh mechanism is used in the 3rd gear to improve the shift feeling characteristics. This helps to improve the shifting effort. A reverse synchromesh mechanism is used to suppress gear engagement noise during reverse gear shifting." This is the same statement I have found for the ST202 E56, in RM380E as well as the 1993 SW20 E153 & S54 (RM308U2).

I don't know much about the S54 nuances (as I don't have one). As for the different models and the boxes each got, it varies. The models I listed above are correct, but that doesn't mean the models you listed are not. For instance, prior to '96-'97 the ST206 got the E56, but when they switched the 3rd Gen 3SGE to the 4th Gen BEAMS it was switched over to the S54. Same thing happened for the ST202. Hell, in 1994 the JDM SS-I ST202 got the S54, the JDM SS-II got the E56 (with SuperStrut) or S54 (without), and the SS-III was yet to be dedicated. In 1995 the same as previously happened, but with the addition of the dedicated SS-III model using SuperStrut and an S54. Fast forward to the BEAMS switch and all you'll find are S54s. It is certainly confusing. There is a guy I routinely talk to about the dates and combinations that plagued the 6th Gen line-ups in the 90's; His name is Rusty and he is your fellow Kiwi. I'll dig up his email if you ever want to get in touch with him. He has a pristine SS-III ST202 in Auckland.

What gear ratio and other information are you looking for? I may have it.

 

Most of us don't have access to those documents, I'd be gratefull if you scanned them for us.
I'm not doubting you, rather I too would like to get past all the smoke & mirrors and draw up accurate listings of boxes and ratio's.
It's a group effort and if we all pool findings I'm sure we can solve the mysteries and for once and all definitly say what goes where and what's inside.
Even studying the various boxes I'm confused as to whether you could actually swap stuff around, ie use later syncros, gears.
The fact that Mr T didn't mark these boxes didn't make life easy for anyone either.

There is in fact a marking system of sorts on the chassis plate-
E- type
XX or XXX - model type, ie 50, 150
F - 4WD
5 - manual selection of front diff

On the box -
1st digit = year
2nd +3rd digit = month
Remaining = serial no

An example is the ST185 gear diagram which cleary states different ratios for the Rallye version, the ratios aren't given and I'm not sure if they are referring to the Sainz version or not as there is also an ST205 "Rallye" version over here.
Also you'll see my list has 3 types of gearing for the ST185 - not 2

I'd like to rebuild my box to the best of my ability and also play around with ratios if possible

Sofar I've drawn up this listing:
Ratios: (Japan spec)
..........1st.. 2nd....3rd....4th...5th....Rev..... F/Drive
E50.. 3.583 2.045 1.333 0.972 0.731 3.583 4.285? ST165 1986 JDM only with locking transfer
E50F 3.583 2.045 1.333 0.972 0.731 3.583 4.285 ST165 1987-1989
E150F 3.583 2.045 1.333 0.972 0.731 3.583 4.285 ST185 1990-1992
E150F 3.583 2.045 1.333 0.972 0.731 3.545 3.933 ST185 RC - revised synchros on 2,3,R,5
E150F 3.230 2.142 1.518 1.258 0.731 3.545 4.285 ST185 Rallye
E153 3.230 1.913 1.258 0.918 0.731 3.545 4.285 MR2 1991-1992
E153 3.230 1.913 1.258 0.918 0.731 3.545 4.285 MR2 1992-1995 - revised synchros on 2,3,R,5


E153 3.230 1.913 1.258 0.918 0.731 3.545 3.933 Camry/Windom/Solara/Lexus V6
E154F 3.384 1.913 1.258 0.918 0.731 3.545 4.285 ST205 - revised synchros on 2,3,R,5
E154F ..........................................................ST205 Rallye - revised synchros on 2,3,R,5

Later "NARROW" versions - not compatible with earier types
E350 3.583 2.045 1.333 0.972 0.731 3.583 4.285 ?
E351 3.583 2.045 1.333 0.972 0.731 3.583 4.285 ?
E56 3.583 2.045 1.333 1.028 0.820 3.583 3.944? RAV?


This what we know sofar-
There have been at least 7 different GT-Four gearboxes, possibly more.
So how do you tell them apart if you find one at a wrecker?
Toyota don't stamp their gearboxes with the type number, so it isn't easy.

Also there are "wide" and "Narrow" boxes - Narrow boxes have pressed side covers and are not compatible with the wide version, they are some 20mm narrower.

ST165
E50F1 Only fitted to 86-87 Japan spec models. No viscous coupling, locking centre diff. Not a good performance choice. Has a large pneumatic actuator fitted to the transfer.


E50F2 Fitted to all 87-89 models (post build number -0002274). Introduces viscous coupling. Available with 4.285 final drive (Japan) or 3.933 (export). These have a pressed steel clutch fork and a transfer drive selector.


ST185
E150F Normal early ST185 gearbox. Identified by the cast steel clutch fork. Identical to the E50F2 but believed to have different ratios.

E151F RC gearbox. Improved dual cone synchros. Fitted with 3.933 final drive in all homologation models. This gearbox may have also been fitted to other post 91 facelift ST185's. Not sure on their specification though.

E152F I believe that this is the gearbox from the Japan only GT-Four Rally model. This has different ratios.

I don't know how to identify the different ST185 gearboxes! Without stamped markings, they all look the same.

ST205
E154F Revised gearbox with different ratios for better accelleration. Dual cone synchros are used as per the RC gearbox.
The fwd selector lever has been removed. Obviously this is the gearbox to buy! Easily identified by the lack of fwd selector lever and the small rubber vent below the shift fork.


There's also race kits for these boxes with straight cut gears and dog engagement (as on bikes)
The prices are steep, ie L1000 for the input alone
www.ingearperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/TOYOTA-CELICA-Assembly-drawings.pdf

 

Here is what I have on PDF:

RM380E
RM396E
RM398E
RM399E

If someone has access to an FTP server I'd happily oblige.

Naturally, I have a hard copy of the ST16X BGBs.

Most of what I have can be downloaded elsewhere. I think RM396E is the only one I had to get help with, but it is useless to anyone here that isn't running a 3rd Gen 3SGE.

MY E56 has that rubber vent you reference for the E154. I did a search and found that the rubber vent is present on many E Series boxes, not just the ST205 tranny.

I think if you're having trouble trying to figure out what tranny you're dealing with when you happen upon a wreck, then ditch that idea altogether. My plan is to identify the part number I need and then do a cross-search across models to find a car that will support my need.

 

http://www.roadandtrack.net.au/images/stories/documents/E_gearbox_short.pdf

http://www.celicagt.nl/multimedia.html

http://mr2.noegruts.com/trannyoil/trannyoil.htm

There is also a spreadsheet floating around. However, if I can't find it I'l make my own with ever E series box I can find information from.

 

Thanks, Mr Byrne is well known and at last someone agrees that the S5x/E15x boxes need more friction to the syncro's

I don't agree with lightening the gears as I've seen quite a few shattered gears in recent times but as I said elsewhere a gear flopping around will destroy the bearing, syncromesh and eventually itself.
Also a small piece of bearing etc can get between two gears and BANG, regular oil changes are the only prevention.

I think the other guy sold his ST205 and moved overseas but will ask around

 

I think he may have sold the ST205 as well. But I posted that link more for the BGBs he has on there. If you want what I have they're right there available for download.

 

Apart from the MR2 site I don't see anything relating to gearbox diagrams/info.
The info on the NL site is also way off, so I wouldn't believe them
The E56 is a E150F without the transfer case, so I doubt it has the later revised syncros.
The date on the box will tell you the year/month of manufacture, if it's 93 on then it may be.
E154F actually has 2 rubber vents

 

What I was referring to on the NL site were these BGBs, the manuals I referenced but you said you had no access to:

• 3S-GE Engine Repair Manual RM396E
• 3S-GTE Engine Repair Manual Supplement RM398E
• AT200, ST20x Chassis and Body Repair Manual RM380E | 28,9 MB (available upon request)
• ST205 Chassis and Body Repair Manual Supplement RM399E

As far as the the E56 being an E150F without the transfer case I'll agree.....sort of. An E series is an E series is an E series. But that is being super general. And I have to disagree on the synchros. Where are you getting your info? If you made that statement about an E52, then I would agree. But for the E56 BGB RM380E specifically states otherwise.

Sometime around 1993 they revised the design of all the E Series to include the revised synchros. Why would a Toyota BGB make a statement giving the mechanics a heads up about whats included if revised synchros are not? One of the fundamental differences of the E153, E56, E57, and E58 is that they supersede the E50, E51, E52, E150 et cetera. I would bet money that the E56 by virtue of the pressed steel cover indicates it is revised.

About the date on the box.....where is that located? And I don't understand what you're referencing about the E154 rubber vents.....

 

Please read the road & track article for answers to the questions

I amended the previous article to explain the codes etc

The pressed steel covers are in fact a different (narrow) version of the E box, I believe they all have the revised synchros

Here's every club racers dream - a straight cut gearset with dog engagement as found on most motorcycles.
Gears are engaged by pins (dogs) locking into the required gear, they are prone to jumping out of gear after much hard use and also noisy for street use

 

I did read it. Both years ago and days ago. But I'm still no closer to unlocking the mystery because my box didn't come as a clip. Without the build plate that Terry references you can't figure it out. I thought you were suggesting there we somewhere else we can look.

I still don't know what you mean when you posted "E154F actually has 2 rubber cents".....there doesn't seem to be anything in the article that talks about the vents.

What do you mean?

I know that and I believe they signify the switch internally. But you posted above that

so I guess I'm trying to nail down what exactly you think is going on here because I'm having a hard time following you. We've discussed before that there is a lot that just floats around on the internet and that much is rumor. This is a group effort and before anyone here takes as fact that the E56 is an E150F or that it does or does not have updated synchros I'd like to know where that info is coming from. I still don't think we're getting the right information here.



Also, if you decide to create a chart please include this info:

E56 Ratios
1st: 3.538
2nd: 2.045
3rd: 1.333
4th: 1.028
5th: 0.820
Final: 3.944

 

Terry states the the E56 and E150F are the same box in 2 forms - he later states that the pressed cover is a later shorter box type, no wonder there's confusion, add to that the different markets and we have a train smash.
Unless I see it in a BGB or count the teeth myself, I'm not convinced
The list I published was written by a local "expert", time will tell how accurate he is

We need to somehow seperate the box types into what is available and not available.
To most of us that means the E50F, E150F, E153, E154F, as these are what are commonly available and affordable.
There are also variants of the same boxes ie a 1992 E153 or E150F is different to a 1993 E153 or E150F



E154F (and later?) have 2 holes in the bellhousing


According to Terry's article, the multiple syncros are not a solution to the gears being overweight,
time will tell if they last longer. His answer is to lighten gears and replace syncro's but the hardening is expensive and the gears prone to shattering
He also says to avoid friction inhibitors at all costs, I'm wondering if an occasional engine flush in the box will restore the friction the syncro's need to work properly

My searching has uncovered a possible solution to the crappy brass syncros, needs further investigation and I'd like to know prices as these look promising

Sofar only found those for Honda boxes and articles stating it's now OEM on new Lexus models

Where did you get those E56 ratio's, that the 1st time I've seen a 0.8 5th gear ratio?
What year/model is the E56 from?

On Terry's article it states there are no's on the bellhousing stating the date of manufacture and serial no

For the gearheads
Torsen


Helical


Mechanical - used as OEM?


I believe you can change the stiffness by changing shims


I'm not sure but I think this is the OEM MR2 diff


Inside you can see the clutch plates and also how the inside moves relative to the outer housing

 

Okay, I'm following you now. So were you saying that there are two vents on the E154F due to the absence of the fork?

I re-read the article specifically looking for the ID info. Then I went into the garage to find.........nothing. No serial number.

For your peace of mind I'll scan the pages with the gear ratios and the updated synchro description for the E56 and the E154F. Hopefully I'll get to that later today.

BTW, I too think that is an MR2 LSD.

 

The E154 does have a fork, for some reason I see the extra vent hole and it appears on other later (RAV) boxes as well.
Luckily the E154 also doesn't have a transfer drive selector (the fork u mention?), so they are easy to identify but not so easy to buy as there's usually a queue of people for them.


I'll check my boxes as well, I don't recall seeing any no's either, so it's vital to try and establish the gearbox code from the supplier of the box.
My problem is identifying the early type boxes and more importantly learning how to identify the "Rallye" & CS versions as I'd love to fit the 3.9 diff ratio and shorter 1-4 gears.
The Camry/Windom/Solara V6 E153's are also believed to have the 3.9 as stock, I believe this is what Mafix currently has fitted.



I read that mechanical LSD's don't like slippery oil either (like brass synchro's) -
TRD LSD oil specs:
This oil is a MUST if you are running a TRD or other branded mechanical LSD.
Also can be applied to other vehicles with a factory torsen LSD fitted to the vehicle.
Part number: A0420-A0000
Ratings: GL-3 75W-90
Applications:
*Manual transmission axle oil for FF vehicles equipped with an LSD
*Manual transmission axle oil for FR vehicles
- Features:
TRD LSD oil FF is a multi-grade gear axle oil developed for manual transmissions equipped with an LSD.
With its special composition, even under motor sports driving or other severe driving conditions, this oil provides high gear wear resistance while also maintaining long-lasting protection for the synchronizer ring.
Even compared with commercial-grade gear oil, its heat resistance and oxidation stability are markedly superior, while the oil continues to maintain high performance.
Moreover, with its special friction characteristics, this oil maintains functioning of mechanical LSDs best while giving you that great gear-shift feeling, without applying excessive load on the gear during shifting.

So this may be a long term solution for those with boxes in good condition, only problem is the price.
$150 on gear oil in an S53 is a lot of money, and double if you are running an E box.

 

Some good news.
The serial no's are right at the clutch fork hole - I have an 89 and a 90 here (both ST185?)

By removing the bellhousing bolts you can seperate the box without removing the 5th gear assy.
Takes a bit of wiggling and undoing the oil sprayer inside, the oil pump gear just slides out with the gears

The diff in pic is not the MR2 diff, I'll post some pics when I get the camera going

Here's a scource for OEM bearings and synchro's, not cheap - http://www.manualtransmissionpart.com/E51.html