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3sgelc plus turbo build project

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Maranco, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. Maranco

    Maranco Active Member

    Ok so I have been following this forum for a longtime and finally joined as a new member since I have everything ready to start my tear-down and rebuild. I do however have a couple of questions I didn't see covered in other threads so i thought I would start a new thread.

    1) being that my gen1 3sge comes stock with a 6-bolt flywheel and I plan on using the 5sfe's s54 (or e153 if I can get my hands on one for a reasonable price), is it possible to swap my gen2 3sgte crank(w/ gen2 3sgte rods/pistons) into my gen1 3sgelc block?

    2) would using the 3sgte crank and rotating assembly change my quench heighth? Since I will be boosting my build with a stock supra spec ct26... I am trying to take everything potentially harmful to my motor into account. Granted I can have my block decked to compensate for additional height to avoid detonation problems associated with incorrect quench. I would however prefer to send my block to the machine shop only once if possible.

    speaking of blocks...
    I have two 3sgelc long blocks at my disposal plus gen2 3sgte internals from donor mr2 turbo.

    I am looking to make good use of the st185 clutch setup i have been sitting on and can't figure out which tranny setup will let me use the 8-bolt crank from the gen2 3sgte and 3sgte clutch.

    i will have some time to work on tranny while my exhaust manifold, turbo exhaust housing, and downpipe are off at jet-hot. So any help you can give me in figuring this out is greatly appreciated. I will of course have pics and vids once I start getting into teardown.
  2. Maranco

    Maranco Active Member

    Still can't find info on whether gen2 crank will sit snug in gen1 3sgelc block and mains. Anybody have length dimensions? I wont be at the garage for another week, so I can't physically pick the cranks up to compare. But I am starting to guess that six bolt and eight bolt cranks center with different heights and would use different main caps off the block. Is this correct?
  3. eNtraxGT88

    eNtraxGT88 Well-Known Member Donated!

    why not use the series 2 gen1 3sge crank? 8 bolt and everything else should be the same.

    in fact my car is currently a stock 8 bolt gen1 3sge with a st202 S54 trans
  4. Maranco

    Maranco Active Member

    Thanks for taking the time to get back to me. What flywheel/pressure plate setup did you go with?
  5. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    1) I believe someone has fitted a FE crank in your GE, even the type 1 motors I examined had 8 bolt cranks. All 3S cranks are interchangeable without changing caps.
    DO NOT swap caps - EVER, the block will need to be re-line bored or you'll have problems.
    FE is on top
    Yes, rods/pistons are a direct swap, I suggest you swap the gen2 GTE head as well and use your gen1 intake with a gen2 exhaust manifold

    2)Quench/piston height is the same on all 3S, only the 5S crank has more stroke (2.5mm)
    Decking REMOVES material, not adds. This increases compression and the only way around this is to use shorter pistons or pistons with bigger chambers.

    The clutch plate will depend on which box you use. S and E boxes have different splines.
    All clutch pressure plates fit all flywheels but the clutch plate diameters are different by a few mm, which shouldn't be a problem as I'm currently using a S clutch plate in a E pressure plate without problems for 3yrs.

    The 3 types of crank use different flywheels, don't mix them up
    To use a gen2 crank/flywheel with a S53 will require the starter to be moved outboard
    You can't use the gen1 GE flywheel with any other box, the GTE flywheel will hovever it can't be used with the S53
    For a turbo build I recommend you look at fitting the E box (check Mafix thread)

    Check my thread for further reading
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  6. Maranco

    Maranco Active Member

    thank you Stig for answering so many questions with one reply.
    i was thinking about using the Gen 2 3sgte cylinder head and keeping the 3sge side feed intake as they both use TVIS and it seems like the ports match fine, since I have already mock routed the fmic, I feel comfy with that idea. I know gen1 gte camshafts came stock 236 and gen1 ge with 240. Did the gen2 gte camshafts come with more aggressive camshafts? Would there be any advantages to swapping camshafts or am I looking at machine work on head and camshafts?

    sorry to keep asking questions. I really appreciate the time everybody takes to share knowledge and save other people from possible disasters. Since I am not after huge power I was leaning towards the s53, I am working on sourcing that, I haven't had much luck sourcing a e153 close to Seattle though.
  7. eNtraxGT88

    eNtraxGT88 Well-Known Member Donated!

    here's my entire thing:

    series 1 gen 1 3sge motor (1987)
    series 1 gen 1 3sge crank (8 bolt)
    st202 5S-FE flywheel
    st162 3S-GE pressure plate
    st162 3S-GE clutch
    st202 S54 clutch fork
    st202 S54 transmission

    that makes sense above regarding the FE crank that stig mentioned. i've never heard of a 6 bolt crank GE...not even the early ones. all i've heard of is that the early FE's are 6 bolt, and the series 2 gen 1 FE are 8 bolt...
  8. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    ST185 clutch won't work with your S53/4

    Yes, the gen2 head is far better, the GTE cams are lame but they have more lift than the gen1.
    With the gen2 head you can use gen2 OR 3 GE cams, which is what I'm building now.
    The later cam timings may look slack but remember a lot more lift is involved as well, so they are actually way better.
    It's also hard to find decent a/m gen1 cams

    For any build like this I recommend you spend some money and do it right, ie -
    New pistons and rings, oversize (most GTE #3 pistons are useless anyway)
    Gen3 GTE pistons are lower c/r and will allow more boost
    Rebore and skim the block
    Chemically clean the block
    Grind the crank to the 1st o/s and use new bearings
    Complete recon of the head ($100 says the valve seals are cracking already)
    ARP studs
    Metal head gasket
    New GTE oil pump
    For turbo/race you need to add an oil cooler to your list

    That's just my 2c after studying these motors for 10yrs
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  9. Maranco

    Maranco Active Member

    Still prepping

    Still getting prepped for the actual teardown and rebuild. I went ahead and bought ARP head studs, main studs,and connecting rod bolts. Cometic MLS gaskets for TVIS, intake manifold, cylinder head, and exhaust manifold are my plan. I found a nice package online for only $189.00 for everything. I still have to think about the transmission setup. With the turbo and aftermarket manifold I don't know how tight a squeeze it will be for the starter on my s53. I think the e153's have the starter mounted outwards of the bell housing so I wouldn't have this problem if I can source an e153. Exhaust manifold, housing and downpipe will all be thermal coated to keep things cool and keep engine bay temperatures down. If I am lucky I will source a fwd e153 and get that mated up to the block with 3sgte internals, and I can keep the s53 to mate with the other block using 3sge internals. Two engines and two transmissions would be great.
  10. eNtraxGT88

    eNtraxGT88 Well-Known Member Donated!

    s53 + turbo = don't fit
    s54 + turbo = fit
    e153 + turbo = fit, more expensive.
  11. Maranco

    Maranco Active Member

    I will have to test the manifold out and post any clearance issues. I know it sits the turbo further out from the block, but I don't have exact measurements.
  12. Maranco

    Maranco Active Member

    S54 bellousing around 3sgte pressure plate?

    So I am pretty sure I have seen this same question here on the forum, I may have even asked it already, but cant find the answer again.

    Does the 3sgte pressure plate fit inside the S54 bellhousing?
    Will it work well in holding pressure under load?
    I have read the S54 is good for up to 350 hp...
  13. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Yes, I use one with a GT4 flywheel & S54
    You will need a GT4 flywheel or one from a 5S manual
    It's stronger than the GE, also heavier on your foot
    New maybe, my old box started flying out of gears under hard acceleration after 200 000km.

    I'd look out for one of the later ST207 boxes with LSD, it will last longer, give better traction and you won't fry your starter with turbo heat
    Mafix went for the Solara/Camry V6 box which is probably the easiest & wisest choice as the S53/54 is famous for snapping driveshafts, even without a turbo
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
  14. eNtraxGT88

    eNtraxGT88 Well-Known Member Donated!

    he speaks the truth! i broke a 2 day old driveshaft from just a hard launch...and that was just a 3sge, with 250k tired km's on it!
  15. Maranco

    Maranco Active Member


    There was a caldina engine-tranny up for sale on a US based JDMEngine Import company, but I havent seen it for a while. It was for 3sgte flywheel and fwd w/lsd. I think it must have been similar to the MR2 and Camry boxes... is it called e56?

    Also, it seems my tranny splines are to small for the 3sgte clutch. Sucks right! Gotta find the 5sfe clutch disc to sandwich in there.
  16. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    E56 is a Camry V6 type box
    Use your exsisting clutch plate
    Later flywheels won't fit your crank, you need gen1 GTE or 5S or an aftermarket flywheel with slotted holes to fit both types of crank
  17. Maranco

    Maranco Active Member

    quick update

    Quick update for you all. Finally have the engine rebuild finished and back in the engine bay awaiting wire harness and ignitor along with transmission to be hooked up.
    I was trying to find the thread about breaking in fresh rebuild and couldnt find that. Any help?
    Pictures soon to come!
    Thanks for all the help

    Ohh, I picked up another celica gt-s... $600 for a beauty with all leather interior, abs, climate control, soon as I get my project celica out of the garage, I am going to drop my spare 3sge block (rebuilding bottom end right now) into that and wham... a great daily driver for the wife with abs and peppy little motor. Its a hatchback not a coupe, love that sexy rear end on it!
  18. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    there is a rare 3sge 6 bolt crank. they were recalled.
    tvis is better than acis
    gen2 tvis head (turbo) on an NA is better than gen 1 tvis head (either one)
    i have an e153 box. there are several out there and all you'll need to know is that any e box will work. the e53 box will need fwd v6 inner axles and st165 or fwd v6 outer axles (least desirable of the choices). the e1XX box will need mr2t (non lsd or not depends on transmission, use whichever the trans calls for stock) and st165 outer axles (the v6 axles are weaker)(most popular choice and has the largest differential)(get a post 1993 if possible, it will garantee updated syncros). the e2XX trans will need axles that i am unfamiliar with (much newer stuff)(the e2XX have a small diff but are very good transmissions).
  19. MattC

    MattC Well-Known Member Donated!

    Will an E-series box bolt straight up, or are custom mounts required?
  20. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    you need 165 trans mount and bracket, st165 shifter cables, st165 shifter cable stay (on trans)

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