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TEMS no start

Discussion in 'Diagnosis/Help' started by Stig, Feb 5, 2012.

  1. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Yesterday I went to the oldskool meet.
    On the way back I noticed the alt had died - batt, cat, rear lamp lights on.

    This morning I went to check the alternator voltage so I started her up and she ran for about a minute and then died (seemed like fuel)
    Spark looks intermitent so I swapped the coil and ignitor - no joy
    Then I swapped the ECU and main relay - no joy
    Checked all the fuses - no joy
    Voltage to the fuel pump is 10v, I can't see if it's flowing as it only works when the engine is running?

    What next?
     
  2. 1fstgts

    1fstgts Well-Known Member Staff Member Administrator Moderator Donated!

    What kind of voltage is sitting on the battery?

    Almost sounds like a ground issue. Hate to be a broken record on grounds, but Ive seen these way too way too many of these cars have flaky issues with grounds going bad. Two of my four GT-S's had these issues pop up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2012
  3. rickstar22

    rickstar22 Well-Known Member Donated!

    Dizzy may have bit it due to the erratic voltage... Stranger things have happened....
     
  4. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Swapped out the dizzy - no joy
    Damm - I have 2 different distributors too! spare one the cap sits 45deg scew and the leads won't reach without removing
    the breather pipe

    Earth? - where, I have extra earths all over the place

    I removed the fuel return and even while cranking there's no fuel coming out?
    Got a spare 185 pump lying around - don't wanna go there till I'm sure.
    Can someone disconnect the return and crank to see if gas is supposed to come out?

    Spark seems weak and intermittent but the HT lead shocked the crap out of me when the G/F forgot to switch the ignition off,
    battery voltage is 12,5v atm (new battery- been on charge all morning)
     
  5. rickstar22

    rickstar22 Well-Known Member Donated!

    I had this problem years ago...

    There is a plug under the rear seat that connects the fuel pump harness to the rest of the main harness. It got corroded and failed me. Kinda funny, it would work until someone sat in the back seat, then it would die. They got out of the back seat, the car would run again...
     
  6. ST165-2765

    ST165-2765 Well-Known Member Donated!

    Gas won't come out the return hose unless there is enough vacuum in the fuel pressure regulator's vacuum hose to open
    the fuel pressure regulator and I'm guessing that cranking the engine isn't going to produce enough vacuum to open the
    regulator.

    Take of the cold start injector fuel line and see how much gas pisses out of it when you crank the engine
     
  7. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Checked that - no joy
    BGB has no resistance for the fuel pump
    I measure 61 ohms on mine and 31 ohms on the 185 pump? which is correct?
     
  8. 1fstgts

    1fstgts Well-Known Member Staff Member Administrator Moderator Donated!

    Jump out the EFI relay and circuit opening relay which will turn the fuel pump on continuous. I would disconnect the main fuel line and put into a can or something to see if fuel comes out. If not, well then its the pump. Resistances will vary on the pump motors, I wouldnt read too much into it. All thats really telling you is that the coil has continuity, if it read open it would be a dead ringer to mean its bad. But it still could have resistance and be a junk pump.
     
  9. ST165-2765

    ST165-2765 Well-Known Member Donated!

    66.8 ohms on my fuel pump
     
  10. aaron

    aaron Well-Known Member

    Open up your Diagnostic box behind the passenger side front strut and bridge the +B and Fp terminals with the ignition ON/engine off.
    You should be able to hear the pump, if not, she broken.

    I have the Haynes complete teardown and rebuild manual, it basically has everything mechanical and most of the electrical systems in it.
    Not as good as the Gregory's, but pretty helpful.

    Aaron.
     
  11. eNtraxGT88

    eNtraxGT88 Well-Known Member Donated!

    +1 on the +B and FP pins, assume that you can take the CS injector out and pin together B and FP.

    Aaron, you need to get the BGB. i have since put away my haynes
     
  12. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Swapped the AFM - no joy

    No matter what I did there was no fuel coming out the return so I went and got the 185 pump
    Getting the tank out was a $%^, when I put the old one on my battery it did nothing the 1st few times and on the 4th try it kicked into life.
    I've never been able to hear my pump, even with the fuel drained, now I could hear it running.
    Then I tried the 185 pump - WOOW, the damn thing near jumped out my hand, it spins twice as fast and makes a lot more noise too

    Found a lot of rust on top of the tank, most of the damn clamps broke too

    More when I get the tank back in.....
    Connected the new pump and it spins up just before the starter kicks
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  13. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Bolted the tank in, put in fuel and she starts 1st time

    Here's the 2 different dizzy's - note the screw holes
    [​IMG]

    The 2 pumps - 185 is a little shorter and has a longer filter
    [​IMG]

    Anybody know why there's a capacitor in the tank? is this normal - 185 pump didn't have it
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  14. aaron

    aaron Well-Known Member

    Looks like it's been put there for safety, if it's connected to both the positive and negative terminals it will be to absorb voltage spikes most likely. I could be wrong though.
    You don't even have to think twice about what would happen if there was a spark in your tank ;)

    EDIT: My bad. After a bit of thought, a capacitor connected to an electric motor more than likely serves as an electrical "noise" absorber. It's what stops your stereo from buzzing while the fuel pump is running, and what keeps noise from giving your ECU the shits and just refusing to cooperate. Basically.

    Aaron.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  15. Spiderman

    Spiderman Well-Known Member

    You poor bugger, what a PITA, good to see it sorted, what's with the slightly different rotor buttons in those dizzy's.

    Who would have thought the 185 pump was that much stronger.

    No Idea on the capacitor, safety sure.
     
  16. fernandocelica

    fernandocelica Well-Known Member Donated!

    Kevin glad to hear you have it sorted out but why is your pump inside the tank mine sit's outside?or is there two pump's don't know why if that is the case.
     
  17. Spiderman

    Spiderman Well-Known Member

    You got it Aaron, I got curious and did some digging, this is what I found..... A capacitor will keep electrical noise out of the pump and keep noise from leaving the pump. An electric motor is also much like a speaker when it is running, it can transmitt noises to your radio and computer when running, the capacitor acts like a cushion to prevent/eleminate this.

    Congrats mate, you get the chocolates :thumbsup:
     
  18. eNtraxGT88

    eNtraxGT88 Well-Known Member Donated!

    all celica's after 1986 should have the fuel pump inside the tank, there should be only one pump.
     
  19. aaron

    aaron Well-Known Member

    MAGNETS, how do they work? :p

    Woop, chockies for me :D

    I mean I better know this stuff. I don't want to be building faulty stuff that makes my ECU conk out on a highway, or even worse give me annoying buzzing sounds in my MacGyver-esque stereo system :p

    Aaron.
     
  20. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Thanks for the input guys
    The cap is connected between 12v and earth - yes smoothing and also big AC motors use them as startup boosters but I doubt that is the case here.
    She's been losing power slightly the last few weeks, powers back and cold starts aren't as flubbery as last week, FPR must be earing it's keep now?

    Fernando - sounds like somebody was too lazy to take the tank out? I know BMW etc has the pump outside the tank.

    Damn alternator was also dead, I went to swap out the rectifier and found the armature was dead - $140 of new bearings wasted and the spare alt is noisy
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012

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