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A tale of two 3S-GEs

Discussion in 'Your 4th Gen beauty' started by stockleeroy, Jun 23, 2014.

  1. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    2011-09-13 13.07.31.jpg

    Greetings friends.

    My st162 project is ramping up and i'd like to take some time to document it here.
    1986 ST162 American market GTS, 204k miles on the clock

    More to follow...
     
  2. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    First off, i'd like to thank pandafabrications (flywheel) and Seank90 (shift cables) for their contributions thus far.

    3sges.jpg

    Original engine is on the left, with stock automatic transmission. The engine on the right is from an '88 MT st162.

    The original motor is in rough shape. I bought the car knowing that it wasn't running -compression on cyl 3 was non-existent. Turned out to be a broken piston. When I removed the rods and pistons, they literally fell out of the engine without any help.

    I'm guessing this thing was run for a while without much oil in the pan.
     
  3. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    86 3sg

    Piston #3:

    86_piston_3.jpg

    Rod Bearings:

    86_bearings.jpg
     
  4. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    86 vs 88

    I noticed a few differences in the engines during disassembly

    EGR
    -The EGR pipe on the 86 extends to the exhaust manifold. On the 88 it runs from the EGR valve to the cylinder head.

    O2 Sensor
    -O2 sensor on the 86 is located on the exhaust manifold and has one wire. The 88 has the o2 sensor further down the line and is 4-wire.

    Intake Manifold
    -86 - Only one port right underneath the cold start injector
    -88 - Two ports (An additional port for Hose G -> http://www.st162.net/forum/showthread.php?4795-Where-The-F*-Does-That-Hose-Go )

    Injectors
    -86 Brown injectors with square connector, 250 cc /min. Hole type
    -88 Green injectors with oval connector, 295 cc/min Pintle type

    Denso injector table: http://club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_pages/Toyota_Injectors_Specs_Data_Denso.html
    This link has some good info on the fuel system (page 12 for injector types)-> http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h22.pdf

    20140810_injectors.jpg

    I found a thread on another site a while back (lost the link) that mentioned two separate series for this engine. The bigger injectors makes me wonder if the later engines (88-89) put out more power stock.

    I'm planning on using an st185 head on the 3sg block with higher comp pistons and these 295cc injectors. My question is, would I need to get a later model ECU (88-89) for the ECU and injectors to work properly together?

    Thanks
     
  5. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    What you see is differences between early (86-87) and later engines (88-89).
    I believe the later engines will make more power, run more efficiently, the ECU is revised also.

    Yes, the ST185 head and 295cc should work well, but they won't fit.
    Dump the stock exhaust and fit some headers and a real exhaust.
    Try to use the later ECU if you can
    ST185 head uses side feed injectors, ones I stole from a Subaru Legacy are too big for the rail. I bought a spare 162 fuel rail to see if it can be adapted to the 185 head but haven't tested it yet [​IMG]

    There are also top feed conversion rails for the ST185, so it's not a major problem

    With those two motors you have enough to build your 185 hybrid and a good spare motor.
    I'd be swapping to a 165/185 oil pump as well

    I don't recommend high comp pistons, oversize with a deck/head skim will see you into detonation territory with todays crap fuels, skimp on the compression and have the luxury of using cheaper fuel safely

    Yes, correct. I doubt they ever changed the oil either. That is one of the worst I've seen without actually exploding

    Hose "G" is not needed, our cars don't have it and the AFM doesn't have a port for it

    Nice to see someone has done their homework
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2014
  6. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Stig. Good info!

    I had assumed a 162 fuel rail would bolt up to the 185 head. I'm now thinking I'll stick to a gen-1 GE rebuild (hoping one or both of these heads are usable.)

    As for exhaust, I saw some MR2 headers on ebay a few days ago, would they work for the 162 or should I look for headers from a celica?
     
  7. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    88 3sg

    The 88:

    [​IMG]


    I found some brown/orange sludge on the intake valves in cylinder 4:

    [​IMG]

    I can't imagine that's a good sign. Cracked head?
     
  8. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    You'd have to strip that head and see

    The 185 head imo is a huge improvement with better cams and bigger buckets, porting is improved too and there are more cam options.

    Exhausts from the series 2 GE will fit, series 3 won't fit as the cylinder spacing is different.

    There was another series 1 engine (85-86) which had us mystified but you need not worry about it as they're almost extinct. It had silver cam covers, heavy rods, 6 bolt crank, different sump
    Looked like this
    [​IMG]

    I actually found one in a car I bought for $125, the manifold and strange T/B I still use today
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
  9. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    I got the '88 Cylinder head back from the machine shop, they say it's in good shape ( flat and no cracks )

    Have been sorting out some odds and ends -

    -Reverse light - Seems the two wires for the Reverse light switch on the S53 transmission are split between two of the Auto Transmission connectors:

    [​IMG]


    O2 Sensor - Since I'm going to use the '88 MT ECU with my 86 Harness, i'll need to wire up a few connections for the 4-wire sensor to work. If anyone has any tips, let me know

    86:

    [​IMG]

    88:
    [​IMG]
     
  10. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    All right, I think I have the O2 sensor wiring sorted-

    [​IMG]

    The new sensor (Denso 234-4051) wire colors don't match the colors on the diagram.
    Blue is signal (OX)
    White is signal Ground (E1 -> Engine Ground)
    Black wires are for the Heater (HT, and +B Switched 12V power)

    I don't have the engine side O2 pigtail for the 4-wire harness, hoping to find one at the local wrecking yard (assuming there are other late 80s toyotas with the same connector)
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  11. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    What was stock? 1 wire or 3 wire?
    Just use the 86 diagram and wire the blue to OX, you don't need the other wires or fancy plugs or extra wiring.

    1 wire, 3 wire, 4 wire O2's are the same, the extra wires are for a heater which you don't need as it was only added long after our cars were built.
    If you have a four wire sensor with an earth you can add an earth wire but I don't think it will affect O2 readings as they are determined by the temp of the exhaust gas
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
  12. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    Hey Stig,

    These are USDM ECUs i'm working with here - the '86 had a 1-wire sensor(OX), but the '88 came stock with a 4-wire heated sensor (OX and HT). If I can keep the factory connector, why not?

    I imagine it'd throw a code for OX Heater if I didn't have it wired properly-
     
  13. Rick89GTS

    Rick89GTS Well-Known Member Moderator Donated!

    Subscribed :cool:
     
  14. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    ah this is who you are. good work so far. and as stig said...use the later electronics if you can.
     
  15. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    cool

    sorry guys I didn't see the last few replies, for some reason I thought I used to get e-mail alerts ?

    Anyway, I got everything in and started it up yesterday -- just in time for my 162's 30th birthday (11/85):

    [video=youtube;3JnyTVFGSg0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JnyTVFGSg0[/video]

    It won't start from the key -- the PO had put an extra ignition button in, and even that was weak. I rebuilt the starter before install and it's starting strong with a wire in the bay, so I'll try the starter relay mod when I get some time.

    For the o2 sensor, i've got a 4-wire denso unit with only the white (ox) signal wire spliced.

    she's throwing codes 21 - Ox / Ox HTR , 43 STA , and 51 (Switch Signal)

    I managed to break the splines on my axle when trying to install the driver side shaft.. any tips on getting it in ? I've seen guys use big vice grip clamps and a 2 x 4 but my shift arms get in the way....
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
  16. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    Part list

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    '88 3SG 0452896

    Crank ground / polished .25 under
    Bored .5 mm
    ITM Stock C/R 86.5mm Pistons
    NPR Rings
    Stock Rods
    New OEM Main bolts
    ACL Race Bearings:
    -Mains: 5M8361H - .25
    -Rods: 4B8366H - .25

    -Oil filters Denso 150-1001 / Toyota 90915-YZZF1
    -Cylinder head was in good shape and wasn't resurfaced, only pressure tested, cleaned and re-shimmed to spec with new valve seals
    Head Gasket: Toyota 11115-88382 (with minor modification)

    ARP Head Studs 203-4204 (12 point 12mm nut)

    Timing Belt: Mitsuboshi 13568-79045
    Tensioner Koyo 13505-74030
    Injectors: Green Denso 23250-74050


    O2 Sensor: Denso 234-4051
    ECU: 89661-20320 (88 GTS hatch 5spd)


    Header: 5S-FE Stainless w/ 02 sensor hole


    Transmission: '86 S53 w/ 92k miles
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2015
  17. Bempa

    Bempa Active Member

    Good thread about researching differences.
    Engine looks nice, you are doing a good woork.

    What are you doing with the ropes attached to the stands?
     
  18. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member


    Thanks, Bempa

    The ropes and stands were my first attempt at an alignment. Rope was too heavy, so I needed the boards to offset the weight. :D

    FYI, I ended up using the stock 3SG alternator tensioner, not the one from a 3SF that's pictured with the block.
     
  19. Bempa

    Bempa Active Member

    I suspected that, but wasn't sure.

    Is this similiar to a 3sge gen2 header?
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
  20. stockleeroy

    stockleeroy Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure what the flange is like on the 2nd gen 3s-ge. The flange on this 5s-fe header is the same as the 3s-fe (triangular) not like the gen 1 3SGE (two holes)
     

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