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Starter Motor

Discussion in 'Diagnosis/Help' started by r69bp, Mar 12, 2011.

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  1. r69bp

    r69bp Guest

    Hi peeps,

    Sorry if this sounds like a repeat question but a while ago I was very well advised on this forum by some very helpful peeps,however I have been doing my investigation on where to find my culprit,I have a 1987 ST162 Convertable Celica ,looking back now this problem developed slowly the starter motor appeared to be acting lazy,however I have bench tested starter motor and it is extremely healthy,now having read some of the other related issues on here it seems my problem might lie within the relay or a dodgy wire somewhere,would there be any chance somebody on here may have piccies/diagram of the culprit in question So I can finally move onto the next stage of getting her back on the road!!!!
     
    r69bp, Mar 12, 2011
    #1
  2. Rick89GTS

    Rick89GTS Well-Known Member Moderator Donated!

    Rick89GTS, Mar 12, 2011
    #2
  3. r69bp

    r69bp Guest

    Hi Rick

    Call me stupid but if I had a problem with the starter circuit either relay or wire somewhere has shortened out which is causing sparks when I tried to either boost start the car or used a charged battery, I do not understand how wiring in this relay will fix the problem because from what I can see from the pictures we are using the original (+) supply from starter motor and (-)negative to goto the relay correct?,and then find a earth to the car in the engine bay.

    Please help as I am getting older and confused LOL!
    Jokes aside I am getting sick of this car just sitting about and not getting fixed because I am not clear on what I am doing.

    Thanks for advise guys. :roll
     
    r69bp, Mar 31, 2011
    #3
  4. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Where did you see sparks?

    Correct - the starter is connected to to + & -
    It's the 3rd wire that does all the work and is connected to a relay
     
    Stig, Mar 31, 2011
    #4
  5. r69bp

    r69bp Guest

    Hi there ST162 Guru,

    Ok when this problem first started (No joke intended),it was slow to start but I always managed to either boost/jump start without any problems,however one day we came to move the car and connected a (very cheap set of leads) and they caught on fire!,so I have ignored this now I know it was possibly down to cheap jump leads,ok I took the starter off cleaned it and tested it and it spins perfectly normal.
    So knowing this I can safely say the problem lies in the wring now and also evertime I try to start the car with my booster pack as soon as I make the negative connection it starts sparking and to ne hionest I am a little scared now of connecting the silly thing again.

    So if I now wire in this relay as you guys have kindly shown are we saying this could fix the car permanently?

    Thanks. :eek:ops
     
    r69bp, Mar 31, 2011
    #5
  6. r69bp

    r69bp Guest

    Oh I have just studied the diagram and I see now as you pointed out, the 3rd wire is the new supply from the battery to the relay!

    Oh cool now I know what to do let's hope it does not catch on fire LOL!

    Thnaks again for advise!

    Oh this relay is available at most audio car shops?As the UK supplies are not as forthcoming as NZ ,America and Auss.
     
    r69bp, Mar 31, 2011
    #6
  7. eNtraxGT88

    eNtraxGT88 Well-Known Member Donated!

    it's fixed my car permanently :thumbsup:

    mine had sparks too at first since i did it wrong, blew a few fuses
    positive battery > 30 amp fuse > pin 87
    ground > pin 85
    the wire that was plugged into the starter originally (brown plug in first pic) > pin 86
    the starter (where you unplugged the above brown plug) > pin 30 (the blue thing on the second pic.)

    it helps because the 12v from the ignition doesn't have enough amps to get the starter going, but it has enough amps to power the switch inside the relay. when that switch inside the relay is enabled, it lets positive 12v with all of the battery's cranking amps straight from the battery through to the starter.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    eNtraxGT88, Mar 31, 2011
    #7
  8. r69bp

    r69bp Guest

    Hi sorry guys let me get this in my head so the original wires on the starter i.e the big black (Live) and the little brown connector these remain connected to the starter motor as well?

    ok this is my understanding the main live goes to the relay at the stated pin number which goes to the + battery terminal

    the brown connector goes to the relay and I cut into this so it goes to starter motor as well

    Then ground it with the pin no

    and make last connection to the final pin?

    I hope this is it sorry if I am a little slow but not quite technician,thanks for your patience guys

    Oh lastly the relay is just a standard 12V auto relay?
     
    r69bp, Mar 31, 2011
    #8
  9. schmooot

    schmooot Well-Known Member

    it is a standard 12V auto relay....try to get a 10Amp one at least as the smaller one will burn out over time.
    Try looking at it this way

    The fat wire stays connected...it goes right from the battery to the starter and supplies all the juice for cranking.
    The smaller wire is the one you cut (just cut the connector off) and attach both wires to your relay.

    [​IMG]

    your relay will have that pinout 99.9% of the time, if it happens to have 5 pins then just ignore the 87A, as it is not used in this application
     
    schmooot, Mar 31, 2011
    #9
  10. 4thgenceli

    4thgenceli Test Dummy

    You don't even need to cut the brown connector off (at least on my 3sge I didn't). It just disconnects and you can use spade connectors to splice into the line.
     
    4thgenceli, Mar 31, 2011
    #10
  11. Rick89GTS

    Rick89GTS Well-Known Member Moderator Donated!

    ^Yeah, don't cut it off. In fact I left it connected at the starter motor and connected into the black connector plug instead. On the 3SGE, the starter motor is hard to reach under the manifold, not so for the 3SFE where it's nice and easy positioned out over the tranny.

    [​IMG]

    Schmooot, your diagram shows different hook-ups than what I'm used to seeing on this site.
    Is that an alternate method or does it make any difference? Here's our original diagram for comparison:

    [​IMG]
     
    Rick89GTS, Mar 31, 2011
    #11
  12. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Sounds like your starter solenoid is stuck or the relay is stuck, what happens if you disconnect the small black wire? Does it still try to spin?

    Scmoot's pic should also work, the relay is just a set of contacts inside with a magnet

    What I made up, thick red wire goes to battery fuses, short wire is earth, long black wire goes to the starter plug and the other spade clips into your existing starter wire (as per Ricks pic)
    [​IMG]

    How to test the starter
    [​IMG]
     
    Stig, Mar 31, 2011
    #12
  13. schmooot

    schmooot Well-Known Member

    ya same pins different diagram. I try not to start thinking too hard until at least 10AM
     
    schmooot, Mar 31, 2011
    #13
  14. eNtraxGT88

    eNtraxGT88 Well-Known Member Donated!

    stig, is the 12v that goes into the bottom part for the solenoid? should i use another relay? one currently for the starter motor, but my solenoid doesn't want to pop the gear out sometimes. or is the factory wire that goes into there just fine?
     
    eNtraxGT88, Mar 31, 2011
    #14
  15. eNtraxGT88

    eNtraxGT88 Well-Known Member Donated!

     
    eNtraxGT88, Mar 31, 2011
    #15
  16. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Your starter may just need a clean and lube job

    Test it by removing it, put the (-) clamp on the body and the (+) clamp to that bolt.
    Then use a screwdriver or wire from the bolt to the connector - when you touch it the
    gear should shoot out and it should spin
     
    Stig, Apr 1, 2011
    #16
  17. r69bp

    r69bp Guest

    Thank you ALL very much for your help and mostly your patience I will get this circuit made a.s.a.p and copy the wiring as shown and hopefully the end of the matter! LOL
     
    r69bp, Apr 1, 2011
    #17
  18. CelicaSteve

    CelicaSteve Well-Known Member Staff Member Super Moderator Donated!

    Glad you're getting there. Any photos of your Celica ?
     
    CelicaSteve, Apr 1, 2011
    #18
  19. r69bp

    r69bp Guest

    CelicaSteve Post subject: Re: Starter MotorPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:20 am

    st162.net Tuner


    Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:25 pm
    Posts: 381
    Location: Coventry, England, UK Glad you're getting there. Any photos of your Celica ?

    Hi CelicaSteve

    Well will get there someday soon,I dare not post pictures of the car as it is in need of TLC but I have changed the wing and bumper and front fascia to the facelift but will need to do some mods on it, the parts all roughly in because the car is in a garage and it is almost impossible to work on as I am sure the council garages are getting smaller!
    She is half black and red at the moment but need to find a good body work person as one day will need to have windscreen removed and the area repaired but no work has thrown a spanner into the works as cannot do anything now,furthermore the starter motor has done what I have now learnt to be a common fault so it does not start obviously so I could at least half drive it out and start to bolt wings and side skirts back on!

    I bought this about 7 years ago in Stoney Middleton near Oxford in the hope of restoring her to it's former glory failed so far!

    I will take some piccies and see how to post them sometime soon.
    At the moment i am using the wifes's Super S Micra LOL!
    Never mind.


    Damn Projects! LOL
     
    r69bp, Apr 2, 2011
    #19
  20. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    I find that working on the car while waiting to hear from jobs helps ease the stress and gives you a sense of accomplishment.
    Most of us have learned to remove windscreens and do most of the work ourselves due to
    finances (lack of :banghead )

    The info is all here, we are here to help and there's nothing we can't help/advise with.
    It helps to read some car threads and see that you are not alone, we are all noobs at some stage -
    but honestly maintaining one of thes cars means having to learn more than just basic car maintenance.

    While you may feel embarrased, don't - there are worse, and most of us know where you're coming from.
    162.net, Scrapyards and ebay are your friend - get to know them and the savings are huge

    Here's a recent example - http://st162.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5684&p=94888#p94888

    Also - strip out all the broken stuff and once you have a "to do" list it will give you
    encouragement to go out and make some dosh
     
    Stig, Apr 2, 2011
    #20
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