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Hard to believe

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stig, May 5, 2009.

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  1. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Just read an article which sounds really weird

    "For Celicas, Camrys, MR2s, and RAV4s- equipped with the 3S, 3SFE, 5SFE- engines the natural upgrade is the 3SGTE with horsepower ranging from 200 to 245 HP in the different generations. With minor bolt-on upgrades power up to 300 is attainable. Internally-built engines can produce up to 350 safely. The standard transmissions can be used, but be aware that you are running a lot more horsepower.

    For a milder set-up the 3SGE may be adequate. Naturally aspirated the 3SGE is available from 140 to 210 HP. The 2nd generation (never imported to the US) produces 170 HP and relatively cheap. This has compatibility with parts from the US engines, and is therefore easier to get parts for. The 3rd generation has 200 HP, and we support parts for this engine. The 4th generation with VVTi has 210 HP, but is very expensive.

    With such a wide choice of engines, it is more the budget rather than HP availability that will determine your choice. Converting engines will require changing harness, ECU, AFM, related relays and igniters. No these are not legal in the US, unless you use US model engines (which limit you to the 1st generation 3SGE and 3SGTE, in the Celicas, or the 2nd generation 3SGTE in the MR2s and AllTracs).

    Japanese imported engines do not have EGRs- an important smog device required in US engines. It is impossible to modify a non-EGR head. Emission controls in Japan are stricter than the US, so the engines actually run cleaner, but they will fail any visual smog inspection."

    WTF. Is this stuff true?, no gen2 in USA? - JDM engines run cleaner!
     
    Stig, May 5, 2009
    #1
  2. Redrkt01

    Redrkt01 Well-Known Member

    That is absolutely correct. I use the 3rd Gen 3SGE and the 4th Gen 3SGTE......much better than the 1st Gen 3SFE and 1st Gen 3SGTE units I had to atart out with.
     
    Redrkt01, May 5, 2009
    #2
  3. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    So what's in the US MR2 SW20 & turbo, ST185?

    I was wondering where all the gen2 pics where
     
    Stig, May 5, 2009
    #3
  4. Redrkt01

    Redrkt01 Well-Known Member

    The ST185 and the SW20 both shared 2nd Gen 3SGTEs.

    The quote you posted is a bit misleading. It talks about how both engines but elaborates more on the 3SGE. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Gen 3SGEs were never available here.
     
    Redrkt01, May 5, 2009
    #4
  5. underscore

    underscore Well-Known Member

    there's a 4th gen 3S-GTE? from the MRS I guess?
     
    underscore, May 8, 2009
    #5
  6. Redrkt01

    Redrkt01 Well-Known Member

    No, the ST215 Caldina GT4. 265hp.
     
    Redrkt01, May 8, 2009
    #6
  7. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    and by far the worst design. the only good thing with that motor is the ignition system. the rest is trash IMO
     
    Mafix, May 8, 2009
    #7
  8. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    I don't know much about them, the rods look like an improvement tho

    [​IMG]

    I think putting them in Caldina's was the major f/up, the Caldina was never seen as a performance car and everyone just spent their money on EVO's and WRX's instead.
    Had it been implanted into the Gen7, the story mightv'e been totally different?

    Rod Millen (USA), Fensport (UK) etc built GTE AWD Gen7's and they are awesome cars
     
    Stig, May 9, 2009
    #8
  9. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    the millen car was a disaster. kept blowing up. the awd worked but the 500hp motor wasn't holding up at all.
     
    Mafix, May 9, 2009
    #9
  10. Redrkt01

    Redrkt01 Well-Known Member

    Do you have one? Where have you formulated your opinion?

    The block is beefier and is not subject to large ventilation holes being blown through the sides like on the 205 block. The internals are all befefier, too. It has the COP ignition, as referenced. It also has a side feed mani. It is compatible with all of the upgrades available to the 205. The only thing I don't like is that you can't change out the intake cam because of the COP trigger wheel. There are other improvements too........I think the oil system was changed up, but I can't remember the details.

    Edit: With respect to the Millen cars.....who knows what they were doing to that motor. What's more is that 500hp is probably a bit much.....I don't think I'd try it.
     
    Redrkt01, May 9, 2009
    #10
  11. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Would you rush out and buy...

    [​IMG]

    or

    [​IMG]

    It's a no-brainer
    As far as I can remember, the bugbear on the WRC gen3/4's was the drivetrain not being able to cope reliably - but even this is a joke as even though it's better than a station wagon - you just couldn't buy one or build one cheaply
    [​IMG]

    IMHO any 2L 16v over over 350hp is going to spend major time on the engine stand?
     
    Stig, May 10, 2009
    #11
  12. Redrkt01

    Redrkt01 Well-Known Member

    Of course not. But the car has nothing to do with the specs or reliability of the motor. I don't see what the looks of the Caldina have to do with the motor. Or is that not what you were implying by asking if I'd buy that? But even in a Celica the build is not all that different than building an ST205 motor, Nearly all the upgrades available to the 6th Gen GT4 are applicable here. Besides, I think a GTE being stuffed into an itty-bitty 7th Gen is going overboard; It's not AWD anyway (unless that one was modified, and that would be overboard too). I wouldn't do it. But that is not to say that a ST215 GTE can't be put into a real GT4

    When my 215 GTE build is done and in my Alltrac I'll let you know what its reliablility is like :eek:
     
    Redrkt01, May 10, 2009
    #12
  13. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    I think that depends on how far you go, I have 2 mates running mid 8's using the Mazda 2L 16V as a base - those motors get put back in before each meet.

    I'm just demonstrating my theory why I think the Caldina was the F/up, not the engine - had it not been for the Altezza the 3S would have all but disappeared. I'd also like to know how they managed to get WRC homologation with hybrid Corolla's?

    I'm still dazed that the GE line didn't continue in the US, it's a huge competitive market compared to other countries and they did manage to sell a bucketload of gen1's.

    The Fensport G7 is/was? (it's gone from their site) a 9 second AWD. Seems like the current car is a ST205 chassis. You must admit that G7 was beautifully done.
     
    Stig, May 10, 2009
    #13
  14. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    yes it was.
     
    Mafix, May 11, 2009
    #14
  15. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    Do you have one?
    no

    Where have you formulated your opinion?
    i try not to be opinion based but ultimately it happens. i've done a lot of research

    The block is beefier and is not subject to large ventilation holes being blown through the sides like on the 205 block.
    compared to a 205 it is better. not compared to the gen 1 or 2 block. although i'm no fan of the gen 2 either.

    The internals are all befefier, too.
    noted but not impressed.

    It has the COP ignition, as referenced.
    and it's beautiful. the best part of the design from what i can see.

    It also has a side feed mani.
    which is good but it has no TVIS and it shows on dyno charts.

    It is compatible with all of the upgrades available to the 205.
    if you trash the exhaust manifold and the turbo

    The only thing I don't like is that you can't change out the intake cam because of the COP trigger wheel.
    easy fix. just money at a machine shop. or regrinds. simple issue.

    There are other improvements too........I think the oil system was changed up, but I can't remember the details.
    yes it was. not too much though. the passages are nearly the same but the filter and pan design are completely different and in different places then the typical 3s.

    Edit: With respect to the Millen cars.....who knows what they were doing to that motor. What's more is that 500hp is probably a bit much.....I don't think I'd try it.
    they used the pikes peake design of the 3s and it is not meant to be run in a street car. i think that is the biggest issue.

    i'm not saying the 215 is bad. it's still a great motor. and there are always things that are better. then there are things that are spot on from the factory. the 215 had huge issues with emissions (never an issue with me but regardless saw the death of the 3sgte), it still has the same old toyota layered computer (no different than any other), it not making that much more power (most of it is in the boost level). so in light of that: for the money you'll spend on that, you can have one hell of a gen 1 or 2 motor. thus i conclude in it being the worst design.
     
    Mafix, May 11, 2009
    #15
  16. Stig

    Stig ST162 Guru Donated!

    Stig, May 11, 2009
    #16
  17. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    never heard of them. kit is priced cheap as well which isn't a good sign.
     
    Mafix, May 11, 2009
    #17
  18. Redrkt01

    Redrkt01 Well-Known Member

    That's a pretty coherent answer, Willie. Nice and concise. I was kinda hoping that you'd had some experience with them so I could pick your brain a bit. There are about 10 guys that have done a 4th Gen 3SGTE swap and even more that don't post on the boards. Sadly none of them are as accessible as you.....
     
    Redrkt01, May 18, 2009
    #18
  19. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    lol i'm always available for a good brain tease.
    all in all the 3sgte is nothing more than a glorified inline 4. very simple and easy to work on compared to larger cousins (2jz). i know a lot and try to help where i can.
     
    Mafix, May 19, 2009
    #19
  20. sr5punk

    sr5punk Well-Known Member

    honestly i find most of my problems with toyota come from the s series engines. sometimes i think they aren't worth it, the 5sfe 2nd gen gives me the worst trouble. but the damn thing will not quit. i do wish we got the later gen 3sge's and the beams. and i always thought that the millen car was well built just over worked. that guy is nuts!
     
    sr5punk, May 20, 2009
    #20
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